WowMatrix Responds! - Page 3

Pyrophoric · 05-06-09, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Lykofos

You are not an author so you would not see the benefit of a version control system such as SVN, GIT or Mecurial. Then again an average user will never seen inside an development repository. However I am a power user, tester, and AddOn author. I know the benefits of using a version control system. I have even have a Git set up on my machine to keep track of my local changes to my AddOns.

It isn't that I don't see a benefit, it's that I don't know much about it in the first place.

Originally Posted by Lykofos

The author of Outfitter was going stop public releases of his mods in protest to the new UI Development policy that Blizzard unleashed a few weeks ago. This had NOTHING to do with user interaction. Most AddOn authors welcome user interaction as those user (in particular power users) will submit ideas and bug reports. More advanced users will do localization (aka translation) for an author as well. Trust me, this is a big deal with WoW being a multi language game.

Reading the discussion between the author and the users, I would say otherwise. It was said by the author he had been thinking about stopping for awhile simply because of the community and they the Blizzard thing was simply the push off the ledge. He displayed a lot of upset toward the community regarding the community.

Originally Posted by Lykofos

The only reason why author info and the donation pop-ups where added was to try to regain some "legitimacy" from Authors. However this is a case of closing the barn door after the horse has escaped. The changes made to WoWMatrix after Authors hammered on WM for years (literally).

That would make sense, however I am just commenting on what features they now have in place. Ever program is allow progression.

Originally Posted by Lykofos

Now I run quite a few AddOns myself. Do you know how many I have to update at a time? 3 to 4 a week IF there are major code changes. The vast majority of changes are small things that do not effect the AddOn. These changes are things like version control tag changes, or localization updates (aka a button that says No in English got translated to "nien" in German). Do you really need these changes? No. So why update 35 to 40 AddOn daily or even weekly? I do all my updates manually. This is on top of being a father, moderating several forums, serving as a Guild officer, keeping my house clean, cooking, getting out for my hour's daily walk, getting my kid to and a from school plus helping with homework and a myriad of other daily RL tasks.

I cannot disagree, however being a father I would figure you would see the value of it just as much as I do. Personally, I update out of habit. You are correct that addons dont need to be updated that often. It is a pain though after a major patch to track everything down and try to remember what goes where, which is another reason I keep my addons up-to-date.

Zyonin · 05-06-09, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Pyrophoric

I cannot disagree, however being a father I would figure you would see the value of it just as much as I do. Personally, I update out of habit. You are correct that addons dont need to be updated that often. It is a pain though after a major patch to track everything down and try to remember what goes where, which is another reason I keep my addons up-to-date.

Even on Patch days, I have never had an issue with updating my AddOns. Normally most authors will release updated versions (if their mods need updating, some of Tek's AddOns have not needed updates in the last two or three years) a few days in advance of Patch Day. If they don't have a release version, they will have a (usually) stable beta that will work with the new patch. I just download those AddOns a couple days prior to Patch Day, stash em in a folder and when Patch Day hits, unzip and go (that is if the WoW servers are alive).

There are tools that will help you find updated mods. Personally, I love Fin's AddOn site: http://fin.instinct.org/wowmods/ I have that site's RSS feed in my Live Bookmarks. Thus I can do a quick mouse over that bookmark and see what's new and updated. A quick click brings me to that AddOn's page where I can see the change log. From there I can make the decision to go to that AddOn's authorized site and download (a handy link is provide to each of that AddOn's host(s). Its simple and easy. Plus I always have a backup in case something goes wrong.

Here is that RSS feed in action:

dranor · 05-06-09, 03:26 PM

This wowmatrix thing continues to bore me to death, they're not right, no matter how they try to prove it and for those who still blindly defend WM just make numbers about the expenses from running a major ui site (which i don't think that runs on a single dedicated server :P), you will start screaming

septor · 05-06-09, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Andeillin

I find it rather disturbing that wowinterface and curse gaming are trying to now make money off wm idea.

So many awesome things to reply to this with... so little motivation to type them all out as they'll fall on deaf ears. :[

Pyrophoric · 05-06-09, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Lykofos

Even on Patch days, I have never had an issue with updating my AddOns. Normally most authors will release updated versions (if their mods need updating, some of Tek's AddOns have not needed updates in the last two or three years) a few days in advance of Patch Day. If they don't have a release version, they will have a (usually) stable beta that will work with the new patch. I just download those AddOns a couple days prior to Patch Day, stash em in a folder and when Patch Day hits, unzip and go (that is if the WoW servers are alive).

There are tools that will help you find updated mods. Personally, I love Fin's AddOn site: http://fin.instinct.org/wowmods/ I have that site's RSS feed in my Live Bookmarks. Thus I can do a quick mouse over that bookmark and see what's new and updated. A quick click brings me to that AddOn's page where I can see the change log. From there I can make the decision to go to that AddOn's authorized site and download (a handy link is provide to each of that AddOn's host(s). Its simple and easy. Plus I always have a backup in case something goes wrong.

Here is that RSS feed in action:

Cool, will check that out tonight when I get home.

Thanks

KiraDouji · 05-06-09, 04:12 PM

Basically what it comes down to is no one's been an angel in all of this. It'd be great if we could all just hold hands and sing songs, but business is business and it's all about making it at the cost of competitors. Even if you didn't initially sign up for the business model, that's where all three are now.

TL;DR - BANANAS

Spectro · 05-06-09, 04:18 PM

The problem I have with the RSS feeds is that they tell me ALL updates instead of just my addons. I like using the favorites feature here on wowinterface much better. I'm thinking about using that one guy's website that Lykofos has mentioned, since it works similarily to the wowinterface favorites but it grabs updates from Curse (and wowui) as well.

Yhor · 05-06-09, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Cairenn

I just posted this in another thread, but I want to make darn good and sure that everyone has seen it, so posting it here as well.

No, I'm not saying that there has been any in here so far, but I'm just warning you guys that my patience is at an end.

Quit being mean you mean old High Elf!

Originally Posted by dranor

This wowmatrix thing continues to bore me to death, they're not right, no matter how they try to prove it and for those who still blindly defend WM just make numbers about the expenses from running a major ui site (which i don't think that runs on a single dedicated server :P), you will start screaming

^That's for summing up how this whole past couple of months has been, for me. If you're legal drinking age, it's a beer, if not, the soda of your choice.

Anything else I'd have to say wouldn't be nice, so I'll just keep my trap shut and try to ignore this thing, this time. Good luck guys, hope it doesn't last too very long.

Bluspacecow · 05-06-09, 07:52 PM

**warning really long verbose post just like the good ones**

Originally Posted by Pyrophoric

The minutes I save having to update 30-40 mods is better spent going to the spending time with my loved ones or going to the gym.

You can go to the gym and spend time with your loved ones in 15 minutes O_o

Because that is about how long I spend updating my addons. I use 89 addons not including multiparts to one addon and other addons that come in the same package as another addon.

I update every week to 10 days. I look at 8-9 addon pages. Download maybe 4 updates. Doesn't take me more than 15 minutes. Again that's 15 minutes every 7 - 10 , examing 8-9 webpages downloading 4 addon updates. Getting in the car and driving to the gym is actually harder and longer.

Updating your addons manually isn't a ardous , time consuming process. If you do things right it shouldn't take you longer then consuming a bagel and a cup of coffee. They do not update in major ways every single day and hence do not need to be updated every single day. Once these 2 truths are realized then the need for an automatic updater program disappears.

Originally Posted by Lykofos

Now I run quite a few AddOns myself. Do you know how many I have to update at a time? 3 to 4 a week IF there are major code changes. The vast majority of changes are small things that do not effect the AddOn. These changes are things like version control tag changes, or localization updates (aka a button that says No in English got translated to "nien" in German). Do you really need these changes? No. So why update 35 to 40 AddOn daily or even weekly? I do all my updates manually. This is on top of being a father, moderating several forums, serving as a Guild officer, keeping my house clean, cooking, getting out for my hour's daily walk, getting my kid to and a from school plus helping with homework and a myriad of other daily RL tasks.

Quoted for Fricken Truth

Originally Posted by Pyrophoric

I am all for the donation program setup for authors. However, I prefer giving 100% to the authors since there are no real perks subscribing to premium. IMO, I am wasting 80% of my money when that could be going to the right people.

Personally I'ld like my money going towards the site as well. Servers don't run on sunshine,rainbows and bacon. Bandwidth isn't free. I like to think my $$$$$ is going towards support a site I love with valuable forums , author support and invaluable author tools (this is true for both Curse and Wowinterface)

Originally Posted by Lykofos

There are tools that will help you find updated mods. Personally, I love Fin's AddOn site: http://fin.instinct.org/wowmods/

Personally Lykofos I'm lazy.

I'm so lazy that I would prefer that when an addon author posts an update I get an email about it.

It's the push method of updating (ie the addons push their updates at me) rather then the pull method of updating.

My problem with going to check is I often forget to update. Not that that breaks my UI or anything

Bluspacecow · 05-06-09, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Pyrophoric

Reading the discussion between the author and the users, I would say otherwise. It was said by the author he had been thinking about stopping for awhile simply because of the community and they the Blizzard thing was simply the push off the ledge. He displayed a lot of upset toward the community regarding the community.

1) I believe the Author of Outfitter is a "she". In the explanation given for her actions she does list that on the night she heard of this she was going out with her male partner's parents for dinner. Either that or a gay male

2) It's already been explained by the author of Outfitter. She had her male partner's parents down for the evening. Kinda of hurt about the UI policy she pulled all her addons off wow interface. Unfortunately she didn't do it the right way so some people's versions of Outfitter got borked. She posted an apology for it and fixed it up.

3) The author of Outfitter after 2 months of no response from Blizzard regarding the issue decided not to punish their users so decided to keep going with updating Outfitter.

Shannae · 05-06-09, 09:33 PM

Wow, just, wow...

I thought I'd seen pathetic and blatant lies before, but this takes the cake.

And just serves to re-affirm my position on the matter: WM will -NEVER- have anything I write now, no matter how much they clean up their act.

Vyper · 05-06-09, 11:01 PM

Ohhhh! Shannae! I like your avatar!

*Swiftly returns to topic before a smilie wielding admin can beat him senseless with a wet noodle*

FrankN · 05-07-09, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Spectro

The problem I have with the RSS feeds is that they tell me ALL updates instead of just my addons. I like using the favorites feature here on wowinterface much better. I'm thinking about using that one guy's website that Lykofos has mentioned, since it works similarily to the wowinterface favorites but it grabs updates from Curse (and wowui) as well.

There is a RSS feed for My Favs as well. So the problem should be nil

eomer · 05-07-09, 01:19 AM

I'm completely with WoWI on this. And the thread about an issue has given me some really nice ideas:
1. Addons don't need to be updated every day.
2. Not each update is a must, there are minor ones
3. RSS and e-mail feature of "My favorites" here (I really didn't know about it before it was mentioned)

Before WAU I always updated manually, and now I'm back to it (I used WoWMatrix for some time before I've read about issues with it here). A plus side of that is that I browse new uploads and can find new interesting addons to try. And I really like doing that here more, then on Curse - interface here allows to do that more comfortably.

So other then looking through new addons updating isn't taking much time for me now (well it even takes less time as I don't do it every evening before I start WoW). And as for a patch day I always look at it as an opportunity - to try and play WoW without addons again, to try different addon doing the same thing and so on.

lilsparky · 05-07-09, 01:28 AM

i remember when wowmatrix first hit the scene and they "introduced" themselves over at wowace. they didn't get a warm welcome and in general folks began requesting their mods to not be hosted there.

i believe the wowm faq is spun version of the truth, but i also think the curse version of the story is as well. curse says wowm didn't offer enough $$ to offset the cost, wowm says curse tried to buy em out for too little $$. i'd wager most folks think they deserve more salary and most bosses think they pay people too much -- it's just the nature of how you value your own goods and services vs those of others.

i could swear i read somewhere that wowi was really just a secondary actor in this drama -- that curse said they were going to shut down wowm's access and that if wowi didn't as well, then they'd get all the traffic so they should "team up" as it were to make it truly effective (and also to not take the brunt of the updating).

there are always different ways to look at the same story -- is curse giving back to the community by offering $$ back to the addon developers or are they trying to "take over" the addon world by trying to hoard addons? i mean, if i get cash for hosting at curse why would i also host at wowi and siphon off my own financial interest?

is wowi going to have to follow suit (offering some kind of financial incentive to host addons) or will people start hosting "demo versions" of mods so that they get exposure but also hits at curse? will they stop hosting at wowi altogether?

these websites are businesses, afterall, and they're competing for revenues. it's not like wowmatrix was the only competition out there. once they're gone, where will the target land?

things change when you add a money component.

edit: oh yeah, i also remember a lot of folks switching to "ace versions" of addons solely because they could auto-update at wowace. if wowmatrix was smart, they'd simply write their own "matrix versions" of addons and simply compete on that level. wouldn't surprise me if they already have begun.

Phantom · 05-08-09, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by Pyrophoric

I am all for the donation program setup for authors. However, I prefer giving 100% to the authors since there are no real perks subscribing to premium. IMO, I am wasting 80% of my money when that could be going to the right people.

Curse and wowinterface must pay for their hosting costs.

Curse just decided ads were not enough to cover those costs and expand their services for their user. wowinterfact also has a premium service you do know that right?

Nothing has really changed with the curse client, they have had had the plan to limit certain features to premium users.

Phantom · 05-08-09, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Pyrophoric

I am all for the donation program setup for authors. However, I prefer giving 100% to the authors since there are no real perks subscribing to premium. IMO, I am wasting 80% of my money when that could be going to the right people.

So don't pay for the premium service if you don't believe in it.

Phantom · 05-08-09, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by lilsparky

i remember when wowmatrix first hit the scene and they "introduced" themselves over at wowace. they didn't get a warm welcome and in general folks began requesting their mods to not be hosted there.

i believe the wowm faq is spun version of the truth, but i also think the curse version of the story is as well. curse says wowm didn't offer enough $$ to offset the cost, wowm says curse tried to buy em out for too little $$. i'd wager most folks think they deserve more salary and most bosses think they pay people too much -- it's just the nature of how you value your own goods and services vs those of others.

i could swear i read somewhere that wowi was really just a secondary actor in this drama -- that curse said they were going to shut down wowm's access and that if wowi didn't as well, then they'd get all the traffic so they should "team up" as it were to make it truly effective (and also to not take the brunt of the updating).

there are always different ways to look at the same story -- is curse giving back to the community by offering $$ back to the addon developers or are they trying to "take over" the addon world by trying to hoard addons? i mean, if i get cash for hosting at curse why would i also host at wowi and siphon off my own financial interest?

is wowi going to have to follow suit (offering some kind of financial incentive to host addons) or will people start hosting "demo versions" of mods so that they get exposure but also hits at curse? will they stop hosting at wowi altogether?

these websites are businesses, afterall, and they're competing for revenues. it's not like wowmatrix was the only competition out there. once they're gone, where will the target land?

things change when you add a money component.

edit: oh yeah, i also remember a lot of folks switching to "ace versions" of addons solely because they could auto-update at wowace. if wowmatrix was smart, they'd simply write their own "matrix versions" of addons and simply compete on that level. wouldn't surprise me if they already have begun.

You do understand that certain add-ons have certain rights reserved to their author right? I cannot go modify your add-ons unless you give me the the right to do so. That is the wonderful thing about programming its considered an art.

This is a short response to your statement, WM would get C&D orders so fast, I would fall out of my chain every night from laughing to hard.

lilsparky · 05-08-09, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by Phantom

You do understand that certain add-ons have certain rights reserved to their author right? I cannot go modify your add-ons unless you give me the the right to do so. That is the wonderful thing about programming its considered an art.

This is a short response to your statement, WM would get C&D orders so fast, I would fall out of my chain every night from laughing to hard.

if your'e talking about my statement that wowmatrix could just write "matrix versions" of addons... i'm not saying they should just cop the code or anything, but the addon community has plenty of instances of somebody implementing the same idea using the same basic premise.

not sure what kind of profits a site like wowmatrix could expect to get from ad revenue, but if they could afford to pay 2 or 3 addon authors to write their own versions of things like a quest helper, a unit frame replacement, a bar addon, a damage meter, a healing interface, etc. they'd likely get good traffic. assuming they could last long enough to get those mods out the door...

Maul · 05-08-09, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by lilsparky

edit: oh yeah, i also remember a lot of folks switching to "ace versions" of addons solely because they could auto-update at wowace. if wowmatrix was smart, they'd simply write their own "matrix versions" of addons and simply compete on that level. wouldn't surprise me if they already have begun.

People have to remember why WAU went away. It began to crush the Ace website in costs because users thought they needed to update to make sure they had the latest localizations added for languages they did not even speak. The WAU/Ace model is not a sound business if you are looking to be profitable.

The folks over WoWMatrix have already demonstrated they are not in the addon game for the benefit of users or authors. Users are lured into a false sense of "hey, this is a great program" while not really understanding exactly what it is doing to make it "feel" like a great program. WoWM is more like a slimy used car salesman (watch the movie "Matilda" to understand what I mean) using "tricks" to make the car seem great on the lot.

The very fact that WoWM changes addon code to hide bugs and toc numbers when the addon really is not updated for the current interface number should speak volumes of what a WoWM addon original would be like. Instead of caring about bug reports, they will just fake it. Mainly because the cost of keeping on-staff addon developers that have the insight into wow-addon making and maintenance would put them into a negative margin.

I know that there are some WoWM users who will blindly drink WoWM's kool-aid. It is just the nature of humans that some will follow a "leader" ignoring facts. However, from it's start, WoWM has never been about the user nor the authors. The changes they have made were merely "PR" ones, to continue to get those users to drink their kool-aid (if you are too young to understand the kool-aid reference, google "Jim Jones")

WoWInterface cares about the users and authors.

Curse/Ace cares about the users and authors.

WoWM has shown that it does not and the evidence is there for anyone who does not want to turn a blind eye to it. Any in-house addons they provide would just be a continued extension of how they do business: That is, like a used car sales man named "Jim Jones".