Why WowMatrix is bad.

[Fashionabull]

Originally Posted by richerich Well, i do recall that if you find a mod you're searching for, lets say "chat"... it will display every addon that has "chat" in its name... you download the one that suits your needs, you try it out and then you either say its crap or its ****ing unbelievable good. And then some day, you find a bug. You want it examined and post the error log... what do you do? You use your friendly site Google.com for the mod and find a site where you can post feedbacks and logs. I know i do it on the mods im using (except for those that hasnt been updated for a while) and in that case, WoWMatrix is a good way to see what kind of addons there are out there, since many ppl dont wanna go on multiple sites, just to find that specific addon to update or find. So in that mean, i'd say both the authors and those that hosts WoWMatrix is getting benefits from the "deal". Even the users gets benefited, since they get a easy way to find the mod they wanna use. So who cares if they make a little money of it, no one forces them to host it.

I have to disagree, with the first part. Most users if they don't know where an addon came from are not going to go through the trouble of finding where it is to offer feedback.

Most will delete the addon and download another similar one from WoWMatrix, bypassing any help to the author.

And as others have stated, offering them without permission initially and using the bandwidth from other sites, is wrong.

And for those users that donate to addon authors, the authors are robbed of that by bypassing the addon home (or where it's based), but WoWMatrix not only has ads (which will pay them while not having to pay for bandwidth, hosting, etc.) but they have a donation button on it, which again takes away from the authors, as people would then donate to the program and not the authors.

[VincentSDSH]

Well, I've demanded they remove the mods I author from their site, still no action.

[Phanx]

Originally Posted by VincentSDSH Well, I've demanded they remove the mods I author from their site, still no action.

It took them about two weeks after I requested mine removed, and they didn't bother sending me any response. I just kept checking their site until my addons weren't listed there anymore. I didn't download the client to make sure they weren't available there either, though.

[Nuchaleft]

None of my addons are on that site, thank god. I'd rather see my addons on WoWUI and curse, because at least they don't use underhanded tactics.

I <3 WoW Interface

[Dajova]

Originally Posted by Fashionabull And as others have stated, offering them without permission initially and using the bandwidth from other sites, is wrong.

That is actually a reason why its good, since then we get always-up-to-date addons, since they probably don't have time to download every single update in a time and let's the authors update inconsistently of the client.

And as far as i know, there is no other updater that still works like this. WAU could only update ace-addons, WoWUI can only update what the authors are hosting here, Curse can only provide with what authors are updating on their sites and so on...

WoWMatrix collects every of those sites and that's what's makes it a good way, even tho they are "taking" the copyrights... I don't think there will come a similar updater like this that DOESN'T break any rules, so atm, this is still the best...

Although, i can agree that they aint hosting the author's name anywhere is bad, but what can you do to stop it, except to sue them?

[Seerah]

There are other cross-site updaters which are more reputable and respectful than wowmatrix.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by richerich That is actually a reason why its good, since then we get always-up-to-date addons, since they probably don't have time to download every single update in a time and let's the authors update inconsistently of the client. And as far as i know, there is no other updater that still works like this. WAU could only update ace-addons, WoWUI can only update what the authors are hosting here, Curse can only provide with what authors are updating on their sites and so on... WoWMatrix collects every of those sites and that's what's makes it a good way, even tho they are "taking" the copyrights... I don't think there will come a similar updater like this that DOESN'T break any rules, so atm, this is still the best... Although, i can agree that they aint hosting the author's name anywhere is bad, but what can you do to stop it, except to sue them?

Ok first you say that them using another sites bandwidth is good. NO! IT IS STEALING! I explained why above. STEALING IS NEVER GOOD!

You also say how can we stop them except sue them... well you are correct, we can't. But the fact that we can't stop them most certainly does not make it GOOD.

[jaliborc]

I couldn't agree more. WoWMatrix can be prejudicial both to WoWInterface and addons' authors.

[Carz]

i agree im a addon make myself and thats why i dont even bother put them up on any site im gunna put on one thsi site b/c i love this site but im gunna wait till they move to there new name

[Cirk]

I posted the following over on Blizz's UI and Macros forum, in Recompense's thread on pretty much the same topic.

Thought I'd also post it here too, since I'd love to see some more discussion on possible solutions to the whole issue.

I'll stay away from the author's copyright thing - not qualified to discuss it :) I'll also not comment on the legalities of download manager's, hosting site legal "rights", etc. Lets consider our hosting sites for a minute though. The sites that host our addons (WoWI, Curse, etc.) pay for the bandwidth required to provide this feature through advertising, donations, premium accounts, etc., where I'd expect advertising revenue to be the primary source of income. Now lets assume that a download manager comes along that scrapes data from these hosting sites (to get the version, etc. that it needs) and provides directly a download link to the content on those sites, and that everyone and their dog starts using this amazingly useful feature. Well, the big danger is that the hosting sites can say goodbye to their advertising revenue ("no one visits your site and sees our adverts, so we won't pay you to show them anymore"). So now, who is going to pay for the hosting and bandwith? The authors and premium subscribers? The site providers? Somehow I don't think that'll happen, and in the worst case the sites may even close down, which would be a Bad Thing(tm). I'd guess that legally it would probably be an Even Worse Bad Thing(tm) if the download manager generates revenue for its own site (advertising or otherwise) while contributing to the demise of the very sites it pulls its data from, but I digress. So, what would I like to see from a download manager that performs the functionality that WoWMatrix provides? - Collaboration with the websites it links to, provide advertising sharing, etc. (i.e, move from being parasitic to symbiotic). As a quick measure, at least have a statement of "hosted by <nameandlinktohostingsite>" on every link. - Author and feedback/forum links (perhaps for the author's own website, or their preferred forums, etc.). If something like this doesn't happen and non-hosting download managers become the defacto standard, we are going to see sites either start closing down (eek), or stop providing persistent links to the addons (e.g., they'd start using login and session based temporary links) simply to "break" the non-revenue generating download managers. So, how about it you WoWMatrix supporters? How about suggesting to WoWMatrix (and other non-host site download managers) that its important to the whole community to not be parasitic in nature, and to instead become a friend, symbiot, contributor, supporter, etc. (pick your own word ;).

[twhiting9275]

Originally Posted by Dreadlorde Not many people care about authors, or care to fill out bug reports. It's sad. If it doesn't work on the first try, it's 'broken' to the person who tried it. They didn't trouble shoot, it didn't work so they ditched it and told every one else that it doesn't work.

Why should someone have to debug someone else's pathetic mod? They shouldn't!

Originally Posted by Vyper The point is (A) redistributing these without the original authors permission is illegal. Period. It doesn't matter that they remove it at the authors request, providing it on their service in the first place WAS illegal.

Incorrect. Claiming the mod is their own is illegal. Redistributing them is a grey area.

If the author says "do not redistribute", yet the site does so, then that is between the author, and the site, however it is NOT illegal to do, unless the author has SPECIFICALLY obtained copyrights and patents for each mod they have designed. The "If you design it, it is copyrighted" excuse is lame, and has been ruled against so many times it's not funny. If you WANT your work to be known only as your work, then COPYRIGHT it, legally.

Originally Posted by richerich . Although, i can agree that they aint hosting the author's name anywhere is bad, but what can you do to stop it, except to sue them?

If you send a DMCA notice to the datacenter (or host), they are legally required to comply with this notice and remove the material immediately. Most will suspend the account and not allow it to be reactivated.

When it comes down to it, they are doing something wrong in the sense that they are taking other's bandwidth, but that's not their problem. If the download isn't properly protected, hey, it's out there for the world to take. If the download IS properly protected, then everything is good.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by twhiting9275 Incorrect. Claiming the mod is their own is illegal. Redistributing them is a grey area. If the author says "do not redistribute", yet the site does so, then that is between the author, and the site, however it is NOT illegal to do, unless the author has SPECIFICALLY obtained copyrights and patents for each mod they have designed. The "If you design it, it is copyrighted" excuse is lame, and has been ruled against so many times it's not funny. If you WANT your work to be known only as your work, then COPYRIGHT it, legally.

Actually you are incorrect.

Originally Posted by http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork When is my work protected? Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Redistributing copyrighted work without the authors explicit permission is illegal. Period. I do not have to register my copyright to make it so, I merely have to register it before I sue. I do not even have to have registered it before the infringement occurred.

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by twhiting9275 Why should someone have to debug someone else's pathetic mod? They shouldn't! Incorrect. Claiming the mod is their own is illegal. Redistributing them is a grey area. If the author says "do not redistribute", yet the site does so, then that is between the author, and the site, however it is NOT illegal to do, unless the author has SPECIFICALLY obtained copyrights and patents for each mod they have designed. The "If you design it, it is copyrighted" excuse is lame, and has been ruled against so many times it's not funny. If you WANT your work to be known only as your work, then COPYRIGHT it, legally. If you send a DMCA notice to the datacenter (or host), they are legally required to comply with this notice and remove the material immediately. Most will suspend the account and not allow it to be reactivated. When it comes down to it, they are doing something wrong in the sense that they are taking other's bandwidth, but that's not their problem. If the download isn't properly protected, hey, it's out there for the world to take. If the download IS properly protected, then everything is good.

A work becomes automatically and legally copyrighted as soon as it is put in readable or tangible format. Period. That is not lame, that is the law. No legal registration is required. That work is covered under the exact same laws as any other piece of work that is registered to the U.S. Copyright Office Library of Congress. There is only one difference between a registered work and a non registered work. The author of a non registered piece of work cannot take anyone into court and sue for infringement. That is the only difference. If you want to sue for infringement, then your work better be registered.

Redistributing copyrighted material without the authors consent is illegal. There is no gray area. Now bandwidth theft, you're going to have issues there because there is no Internet law that covers bandwidth theft. The only hope a web site owner has is to contact the offending sites web host and pray that host respects their reputation enough to do something about it. Unfortunately, there are a handful of hosts out there that could care less about bandwidth theft.

No, most hosts will not deactivate an account. There are different circumstances with every situation (and I've seen and heard just about all of them). I have and always will take those things into consideration when I deal with my own hosting clients, as do most hosting companies.

[schnoggo]

Originally Posted by twhiting9275 If the author says "do not redistribute", yet the site does so, then that is between the author, and the site, however it is NOT illegal to do, unless the author has SPECIFICALLY obtained copyrights and patents for each mod they have designed. The "If you design it, it is copyrighted" excuse is lame, and has been ruled against so many times it's not funny. If you WANT your work to be known only as your work, then COPYRIGHT it, legally..

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the ACTUAL state of affairs in international copyright law. The Berne Convention (which the US signed on to in 1988), states that copyright is automatic. Your "lame excuse" is the law.
Therefore, your statement that it has "has been ruled against so many times it's not funny" is, at best, uninformed.

While you are entitled to hold an uninformed opinion, you are not entitled to make stuff up and call it a valid argument.

[Tristanian]

In addition, transparently hot-linking media files and generally content other than a simple web page (aka without providing or showing the actual link anywhere, thus "deceiving" the person that receives the data, while circumventing the actual site entirely) is also something that is frowned upon and rightfully so.

[Taffu]

Originally Posted by richerich Although, i can agree that they aint hosting the author's name anywhere is bad, but what can you do to stop it, except to sue them?

You can tell them to stop carrying your AddOns. I requested the same when they were claiming to host SLDataText, and it was removed from their list fairly quickly, and unlike Phanx I managed to get a response.

It was actually more of an inquiry, asking why I wanted it removed. I explained to them they are circumventing the distribution rights of the sites they're pulling the AddOns from as well as negatively impacting site traffic to the original hosting site(s). They're follow up was a lame duck "Oh, we tried to talk to Zam Network, but they wouldn't respond".

Just because they "try" doesn't mean they automatically have the right to distribute the AddOns without consent. For some of the larger, more popular AddOn Authors...removal from WoWMatrix could very well cripple the use of the program all together. What's the point of using it if you have to manually update all the dominant AddOns you use anyway?

For me, it was more my disgust with avoid good hosting sites like WoWI. At one point WoWMatrix asked me "Would you prefer your users not have up to date versions of your AddOn?", which came off as a rather rude way of putting it. I simply responded with "Nothing is stopping them from downloading the most recent version from WoWI except their own lazy inability to visit the site that hosts the AddOn, and therefore deserves the traffic".

[Phanx]

Originally Posted by richerich That is actually a reason why its good, since then we get always-up-to-date addons, since they probably don't have time to download every single update in a time and let's the authors update inconsistently of the client.

It doesn't matter if you think it's "good". The fact remains, it is illegal.

Furthermore, you vastly overestimate how long it takes to keep addons updated without a program to do it for you. Find the addon you use on WoWInterface. Click "Add to Favorites". Now, when there's an update, you'll get an email message with a link to click to directly download the file. It takes all of 10-30 seconds (depending on your connection and your proficiency with your decompression software) to unzip the archive into your addons folder. What addons do you use that are updated so frequently that having to click a link and unzip a file manually are such overwhelming tasks? I use about 150 addons, plus about 100 more libraries, and have never seen this as a problem.

Also, you don't need to update. Update if the addon breaks, yes. Update if the addon has a cool new feature, yes. But you don't need to update every day just for the sake of updating.

And as far as i know, there is no other updater that still works like this. WAU could only update ace-addons, WoWUI can only update what the authors are hosting here, Curse can only provide with what authors are updating on their sites and so on...

You don't know very far then. There are several other updaters that can pull addons from multiple sites. While they do leech bandwidth from WoWI and other sites, they differ from WoWMatrix in an important way -- they don't make it look like they are hosting the addons themselves. The user must input each addon and which site it's hosted on in order for these updaters to work. Significantly, this does not violate my copyright.

WoWMatrix collects every of those sites and that's what's makes it a good way, even tho they are "taking" the copyrights... I don't think there will come a similar updater like this that DOESN'T break any rules, so atm, this is still the best...

So... it's okay to break the law, just to save yourself a few minutes? Try telling that to the next cop who pulls you over for breaking the speed limit. I'm sure he'll be convinced.

[Dreadlorde]

Sorry for going off topic, but does this mean JWoWUpdater is done for?

[Tekkub]

The issue with WM is less that it steals bandwidth, and more that it steals bandwidth AND turns ad revenue at the same time. I wouldn't fear too much for the freebie updaters.

[Tristanian]

I'm pretty tired debating this topic over @ WoWAce, seems people don't seem to grasp some very basic concepts, such as the right of an author to be able to control where/how his work is been distributed. I think I'll just throw the towel there and embrace the motto: "If you want to control it, then don't release it !".

This does not only apply to WM but other updaters as well, at the very least their authors don't do it for the cash, so I can understand them, despite not agreeing to their methods. The rest is as Tek stated.